Dr. Jack Kevorkian has helped end the lives of 28 painfully ill people. He has been tried and acquitted three times of assisting suicide, most recently last week. I was sitting in my office minding my own business the other day when the producer of 60 MINUTES called and asked if I'd go to Detroit and talk to Dr. Kevorkian. I couldn't figure out why he wanted me to do it. I mean, all I have is a bad cold. It turns out Kevorkian agreed to the interview if I'd ask the questions, so that's what I did. I talked with Dr. Kevorkian and his lawyer, Geoffrey Fieger.

Is there a good way of dying naturally?

Dr. JACK KEVORKIAN (Assisted Suicide Advocate): I don't know. I think there is. I think most people would pick sudden heart attack and in sleep.

ROONEY: In their sleep.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Right, they would pick sudden heart attack in sleep. We assume that's the best way to die, because you never know.

ROONEY: You're too young to get in on this conversation, Geoff.

Mr. GEOFFREY FIEGER (Kevorkian's Attorney): I understand.

ROONEY: I think I'll call you Mr. Fieger, if I may.

Mr. FIEGER: You can call me Geoff.

ROONEY: When do you decide that this person probably would be best to go?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well, actually, the patient decides when it's best to go.

ROONEY: But is--but is he or she a good judge?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Only on what he or she wants. As a medical doctor, it is my duty to evaluate the situation with as much data as I can gather and as much expertise as I have and as much experience as I have to determine whether or not the wish of the patient is medically justified. The two must then coincide--the wish of the patient and the medical justification.

ROONEY: What is the legal aspect of this? Does he tell you what he's going to do?

Mr. FIEGER: No, not in advance.

ROONEY: You just saying that because you don't want to be...

Mr. FIEGER: Maybe. But I don't think he's committed any crime. He's just doing something that's right, and everybody instinctively understands it. That's why we're winning. This isn't something that we have to teach people a lot about. They understand it. Government has no business telling you when you have to--how much you have to suffer before you die.

ROONEY: How do you feel about what the Eskimos do? Is that a good idea?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Oh, no, no, that's brutal.

ROONEY: Putting--well then...

Mr. FIEGER: Leaving them on the ice.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: That's brutal.

ROONEY: Putting older--leaving them out on ice floes?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well, we're doing the same thing by letting them starve and thirst to death in--in hospitals. You call--the Germans did that in the concentration camps. Our Supreme Court has validated...

ROONEY: That happens in hospitals, you think?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Yeah, it sure does. It's legal. And the Supreme Court of the United States--our--our best Supreme Court, has validated the Nazi method of execution in se--in concentration camps, starving them to death. And--and...

ROONEY: Now--now, what are you saying, please? What are they doing in hospitals that you...

Dr. KEVORKIAN: They take away their feeding and water when they're in coma and let them die. I mean, you're validating what the Nazis did in concentration camps.

Mr. FIEGER: See, that's what's...

ROONEY: And what you--but you do not approve of that?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Absolutely not. That's brutal. That is inhumane. Would you approve of that? When a--when you say a person should be allowed to die, inject them quickly and painlessly, not let them wither away and starve to death. That is inconceivable. It's unspeakable. But our Supreme Court has said, 'That is nice. It's ethical.'

ROONEY: Dr. Kevorkian, I have known doctors all my life, and there has been, I believe, a tacit agreement among doctors that--that there are times when they have helped people out of this world who were terminally ill and in--in great pain, and they didn't say anything about it. It was an understanding they all had. Have you ruined that for them?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: I don't think so, but I might have. I don't think I have. Now I think the--the--the legal wrangling over this has prob--helped ruin it more than I have.

ROONEY: And your legal problems have really inhibited you, in some sense, from doing it absolutely the best way?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: That's true. That's absolutely true. They've inhibited--taken my license away. They suspended it, made it tough for me to get any drugs. And--and then, when I use gas, they scorn it. Oh, come on.

ROONEY: You're not a great favorite among doctors.

Mr. FIEGER: Uh-uh.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well, among which doctors?

Mr. FIEGER: Not witch doctors.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Which, which, which--among which doctors? Among many Catholic doctors? No. Among many Baptist doctors? No. But among doctors in general, I think more than half support what I'm doing.

ROONEY: Are you in any way religious?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: I might be, but my religion centers in different area than what's considered conventional religion.

ROONEY: Any time anybody starts hedging like that, I realize they're not religious.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well--oh, no, religion is an internal spiritual world, and I have my own, with my god, Johann Sebastian Bach. I mean, why not? Every--you invent gods; that's my god. At least he's not invented.

ROONEY: If what you do became popular--in other words, if it was accepted legally and ethically, and people in hospitals who were terminally ill and in nursing homes and everywhere else, they died through--with some help from doctors like you--would this have an effect on the income of--of doctors in hospitals?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: It could. It dep--if you let every doctor do it, it could. Just like everything else, you let any doctor do it, and some are going to abuse, because you've got crooked--some crooked doctors out there.

ROONEY: Should they let every doctor do it?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: No.

ROONEY: Well, what--who should do it and who shouldn't? Which...

Dr. KEVORKIAN: They should be specified, I don't care by who--not by government, preferably--but by the medical profession, who certifies cardiac surgeons.

ROONEY: You mean, it should be something that was--would be a certification, just like...

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Yes.

ROONEY: ...being a--a...

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Yes.

ROONEY: Is that true?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: That's a good way to control it.

ROONEY: Where do you stand on capital punishment?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: I was neutral, but I will admit, like Socrates and Aristotle and Plato and some other philosophers, that there are instances where the death penalty would seem appropriate.

ROONEY: What about--what about abortion?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Absolutely. Woman's choice. I'm for absolute autonomy of the individual, and an adult, com--mentally competent woman has absolute autonomy. It's her choice.

ROONEY: But is not the fetus a person yet?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Whether the fetus...

ROONEY: No rights?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: ...the fetus is a person or not, it can--the fetus' autonomy, if it exists or not, cannot supercede or equal the--the autonomy of the--of the mother carrying the fetus.

ROONEY: I think the American public is puzzled about you. They don't know whether you're a--a medical philosopher or a nut. Which are you?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Probably both. You might say I'm a philosophic nut, or a nutty philosopher. It doesn't matter. Words don't mean anything. If you dig into anybody's character, you can find eccentricities if you can--you can characterize as nutty.

ROONEY: But you--you've done some nutty things, though. I saw your picture of you in a--in a pillory, in a Thomas Jefferson ...(unintelligible)

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well, you know...

ROONEY: Why would you do that?

(Footage of Kevorkian bound; in wig)

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Well, for example, these are object lessons. Nothing's more powerful than object lessons.

(Footage of death masks; paintings)

ROONEY: (Voiceover) You seem abnormally obsessed with death.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: (Voiceover) Not at all.

ROONEY: (Voiceover) But I've seen some of your art. I've read some of your book. Both your prose and your painting are macabre.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: (Voiceover) Well, OK, the one on war with a--where you have this body...

ROONEY: (Voiceover) Macabre.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: (Voiceover) ...with the head on the plate in front of it.

ROONEY: (Voiceover) Yeah, I would--I would tend to call that macabre.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: (Voiceover) What is war? When you look at that, do you get a good feeling?

ROONEY: (Voiceover) No.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: You look at it. It's colorful. It's nice. It draws you to it. And then--which we do to war--and then you go through it and then say, 'God, that was macabre!' That's the feeling I'm trying to convey with the painting. I--you look at that painting. You like looking at it. It's colorful. But you hate what you're looking at.

ROONEY: In view of all these things, and--and how you are viewed by the American public as somewhat of an oddball, do you think that you are the right guy to have represented this cause about which you feel so strongly? Could someone else have done it better?

Mr. FIEGER: No.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Maybe. Sure. Where is he? Where is she?

ROONEY: Mm-hmm.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Look at--they criticize me. 'You're not the poster child for this.' Fine. The reason I'm doing it in a fashion that's not entirely acceptable to everybody is because of the prosecutor--the--the prosecutor and the intimidation. They threaten me with jail; I'm hauled into court. We've got to hide things. They come in and confiscate everything in the house. This is almost brutal prosecutorial departmentalized...

ROONEY: You haven't enjoyed it just a little bit? You look as though sometimes in court, you're enjoying it.

Mr. FIEGER: We enjoy winning.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: What looks like enjoyment is--is the--is the sneer of contempt. That's not a smile.

ROONEY: You're sneering?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Sneering in contempt, right. This last trial, I showed--I had to show contempt, not just say it. I've showed it.

(From trial) Tell me I'm wrong!

Prosecutor: You're wrong.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Prove it!

Prosecutor: Easily.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Prove it! Cite a case on common law of assisted suicide pros--prosecution. Cite it!

Prosecutor: Judge. You ...(unintelligible)

Unidentified Judge: You were instructed not to ask questions. Speak before you ask.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: You can cite me for contempt, Your Honor. I don't care.

Judge: It's time to take a break.

Prosecutor: Thank you, judge.

(End of excerpt)

ROONEY: You advised him against being so contemptuous?

Mr. FIEGER: Oh, absolutely. He doesn't listen to me. And of course, I don't listen to him. So we're equal on that ground.

ROONEY: Now when you become involved with somebody who is terminally ill and you agree to help them end their lives, is there a charge in that?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: No. No.

ROONEY: No money ever exchanges hands?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: No.

Mr. FIEGER: He'd be in jail if...

ROONEY: Is that true?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Yes.

Mr. FIEGER: ...Andy, if--he'd be in jail if that was true.

ROONEY: I haven't thought of that. Yeah.

Mr. FIEGER: He would be in jail.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Why--why--first of all, money should--a transfer of money should never be involved in this profound situation. Although illness is profound, too, but medicine's a business today. It's a business. There is a way to solve it. The doctor who does this must be salaried. Now what you've done with that, you've had two--you've made--you create two big advantages. First, there's no incentive for the doctor to do more than he has to do. In fact, he wants to do less now. All salaried people would like to do less for the money. And second, you--you--you prevent abuse.

ROONEY: Do you have a low opinion of other people in the medical field, doc--doctors?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Not of the--some--not of any of the people in the field. I have a low opinion of the organized profession, which I now no longer call a profession.

ROONEY: What do you do about money?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Oh, I'm--I--first of all, I saved a little, because I knew what was coming.

Mr. FIEGER: Cheap.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Yeah, and I live cheap, right.

ROONEY: You enjoy any--food or anything like that?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: No, I don't--I don't enjoy good food. I don't enjoy flashy cars. I don't care if I live in a dump. I don't enjoy good clothes. This is the best I've dressed in months.

Mr. FIEGER: Tell him how much that suit cost.

Dr. KEVORKIAN: But...

Mr. FIEGER: He's proud of it. How much did that suit cost? It's a genuine ersatz Armani, isn't it?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Armani--it's an Armani copy, right. Right.

Mr. FIEGER: Yeah, it's cheap. He told me it's genuine. Now...

ROONEY: How much was that suit?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Fifteen bucks.

Mr. FIEGER: Who shined that...

ROONEY: Fifteen dollars.

Mr. FIEGER: Who shined that suit?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Oh, it came with the suit. There was original shine--right--$ 15.

ROONEY: I didn't realize that you two were--were such a team. I can see that.

Mr. FIEGER: Hm. Mm-hmm.

ROONEY: Has this been good for your practice, or bad?

Mr. FIEGER: Eith--neither. Well, they've gone after me, just legally. They're going after my license because of my defense of Jack.

ROONEY: Did you really seriously worry about going to prison?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: No, never. Am I a criminal? The world knows I'm not a criminal. What are they trying to put me in jail for? You've lost common sense in this society because of religious fanaticism and dogma. You're basing your laws and your whole outlook on natural life on mythology. It won't work. That's why you have all these problems in the world. Name them: India, Pakistan, Ireland. Name them--all these problems. They're all religious problems.

ROONEY: You don't seem to feel very strongly about this issue, do you? What do you do for fun, Dr. Kevorkian?

Dr. KEVORKIAN: Irritate people.

ROONEY: Irritate people.

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